Discussion:
Rating "Perfidia" by various artists
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PhillyGuy
2005-02-21 08:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Sometimes with a song or melody you like, you know there's a best
version out there somewhere, or somebody has to find the key to unlock
all of a songs' riches.

Examples of this for me are a song like "Unchained Melody". I don't
believe the ultimate version has yet been done, although for me Roy
Hamilton's version and Les Baxter's semi-instrumental at least pointed
the way and skirted around the edges of greatness. Elvis did a decent
version. But he was Elvis. Millions are happy as a clam with the
version by late Bobby Hatfield of the Righteous Brothers - but I don't
believe in my heart of hearts that's the best anybody can or will ever
do with that song by a long shot. And I mean a long.....shot. Vito &
The Salutations version is a farce for me (not for you necessarily),
because what I'm looking for, is for some artist to bring out the great
beauty in this plaintive song and max it out in their vision, or even
with a producer's vision to help.

Another song for me that I have an intrigue for the melody is Alberto
Dominguez' "Perfidia". I don't care what era the song is done in, or
what kind of production values are employed, as long as the song gets
the right treatment in that kind of setting. Here is how I rate the
few versions I'm aware of:

#1 Linda Ronstadt (from the score of "The Mambo Kings")
#2 Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra
#3 The Ventures
#4 Xavier Cugat (oldest version I'm aware of; not counting his
remakes, this is the Victor/RCA version I speak of from early 40's)
#5 Benny Goodman
#6 The Four Aces
#7 Glenn Miller

The Ronstadt I rate a 9.5, and the Dorsey a solid 9. It is not the
best or most important thing he did, but the only well-done (not
underdone like Glenn Miller's version or overdone like Goodman's). If
you want to know how the song comes off in great hands or great
conception, stop right there.

The Ventures' version is brilliant for translating this into rock and
roll treatment (or rock and roll production values). It is not the
best thing they ever did, but it is one of the best things they ever
did). The Xavier (pronounce the Cuban's name "hah-vee-AIR" please)
Cugat version could have been my number two, the wimp-out ending a al
bubbles blow in the bathtub with a straw drags an otherwise startlingly
creative effort way down. And don't talk to me about his watered-down
remakes in the 50's of his big hit, or I'll reach for my gun.

Now we get to some versions that disappoint. Benny Goodman's version
appears to be a great effort, but it grows old much faster on regular
listenings, and has limited appeal, even though he raves it up and
tries a super-charged take on it. It is no deep Goodman classic in the
way that "Why Don't You Do Right?" is, and for a Latin number, he had a
more salutory effort on "Ramona". All 3 of these are available, for
comparison, by the way on the Time-Life "King Of Swing" CD in their
swing series. It ain't no big band essential. But doesn't swing
harder than the Dorsey? Of course it does. That doesn't make it
better. It is overwrought, yet it borders on greatness. Goodman
seemed to have his own version for every song ever available in its
day. Sometimes he hit the bullseye ("Stompin' At The Savoy" or "These
Foolish Things" with Peggy Lee, or "Loch Lomond", and sometimes, it
seems more often than not, a pale, pallid and/or feckless version of
somebody else's big hit, like "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon", which would make
you wonder why he ever even bothered, unless to keep band busy working
on something and fulfill and record contract with Bluebird (or
contractual obligation).

Nothing like that can evn be said for the Four Aces version; it is far
from their best song, and even further from the best possibilities for
"Perfidia". What the Aces didn't do for uptempo, Glenn Miller didn't
do for a sleepytime lullaby version of Perfidia. If either or both of
these are your only acquaintance with the song, I feel sorry for you,
but not if you are too lazy to look any further.

Why did it take 50 years for the best version so far, that of Linda
Ronstadt's, to come out with something that does the song justice?
Jimmy Dorsey's is pleasant, well-orchestrated, and justifiably sold
better in its day than the Glenn Miller or Goodman versions, but gives
not hint of greater possibilies. Unfortunately, his band was not as
enduringly popular as Miller's, and now whenever big band is heard,
people are more likely to be familiar with Miller's milk and cookies
for bed version, which almost totally strips the version of any of its
original Latin fire.

Hearing the Ventures pleasant, but not killer version of the song, also
gives no hint of what Ronstadt would someday do in a Rhumba (please
pronounce "rume-buh" or "room-buh" to get that word right)
phrasing. Still, while this may be as close as we get to full or
perfect realization of the song, one is still left with the feeling
there is still a little room left for someone, in theory to sneak in
and top it, but not much room to get by it. There is a LOT of room, by
contrast, to do more with "Unchained Melody", it is just going to take
a brilliant conception by somebody with talent to burn to do it.

some thoughts,

-T.
Palmateer
2005-02-21 12:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Goodman's version with Helen Forrest on vocal is a personal favorite of
mine.

- Tom
PhillyGuy
2005-02-21 22:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Palmateer
Goodman's version with Helen Forrest on vocal is a personal favorite of
mine.
- Tom
I'm honestly glad you like it (and thus the song, too); I think
Goodman tried hard (but not his hardest) and somehow got about 50% of
the way there, by my estimate. It is not part of the essential Benny
Goodman part of his catalog; it's a very good record. It is not in
"true greatness" category. As there is no accounting for taste, beauty
is in the eye (or rather, ear) of the beholder. Ronstadt is the first
version of this song I've heard to approach near proximity to the
bullseye of true greatness for me.
Roger Ford
2005-02-21 14:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by PhillyGuy
Another song for me that I have an intrigue for the melody is Alberto
Dominguez' "Perfidia".
I don't like the song itself very much.

The only version I have and that I really like is the Ventures

ROGER FORD
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G***@mindspring.com
2005-02-21 23:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by PhillyGuy
Sometimes with a song or melody you like, you know there's a best
version out there somewhere, or somebody has to find the key to unlock
all of a songs' riches.
Another song for me that I have an intrigue for the melody is Alberto
Dominguez' "Perfidia". I don't care what era the song is done in, or
what kind of production values are employed, as long as the song gets
the right treatment in that kind of setting. Here is how I rate the
#1 Linda Ronstadt (from the score of "The Mambo Kings")
#2 Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra
#3 The Ventures
#4 Xavier Cugat (oldest version I'm aware of; not counting his
remakes, this is the Victor/RCA version I speak of from early 40's)
#5 Benny Goodman
#6 The Four Aces
#7 Glenn Miller
What do you think of the Ben E. King version?
g***@aol.com
2005-02-22 04:22:26 UTC
Permalink
The Glen Miller version, b ar none.


Vocal: Dorothy Claire (female solo) and the Modernaires (Marion Hutton
having temporarily left to raise a child,IIRCX).
S***@searchhawkmail.com
2005-02-22 07:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
The Glen Miller version, b ar none.
Vocal: Dorothy Claire (female solo) and the Modernaires (Marion Hutton
having temporarily left to raise a child,IIRCX).
Amen! The Glenn Miller version is the definitive one.
PhillyGuy
2005-02-22 17:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by g***@aol.com
The Glen Miller version, b ar none.
Vocal: Dorothy Claire (female solo) and the Modernaires (Marion
Hutton
Post by g***@aol.com
having temporarily left to raise a child,IIRCX).
Amen! The Glenn Miller version is the definitive one.
I must suggest that the word "definitive" can not be used here on
merit, not for a Latin-born and conceived song, carrying native Latin
fire with it into the manifest world, with that kind of edge or
syncopation to it, not while Miller delivered one with a near-totally
castrated rhythm section, leaving it devoid of Latin feeling, or sense
of Latin origin, and Latin-like punch. There is very little evidence
in the Miller version to discern it was any more Latin in origin or
nature than "Make Believe Ballroom", "Moonlight Cocktails" or "Bluebery
Hill". Therefore, one cannot say Miller's version is the definitive
one. He took a song headed in one direction, and made it a milk and
cookies bedtime lullaby.

Ronstadt's is likeable to a VERY fine wine, Dorsey's to a pretty good
beer, Goodman's to a Scotch and soda with not the most expensive Scotch
either, although not the cheapest. The 4 Aces version in this metaphor
would be like Hawaiian punch, if not Kool-Aid. Cugat - started out
with best grapes but lost something in the final stages of distillation
somewhere, good notes with a few bad ones in the scent and taste.

-T.
PhillyGuy
2005-02-22 17:59:17 UTC
Permalink
And I meant to say, Miller's was as safe as milk.

By the Ventures? A nice wine cooler.
S***@searchhawkmail.com
2005-02-23 16:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Tom: I must suggest that the word "definitive" can not be used here on
merit, not for a Latin-born and conceived song, carrying native Latin
fire with it into the manifest world, with that kind of edge or
syncopation to it, not while Miller delivered one with a near-totally
castrated rhythm section, leaving it devoid of Latin feeling, or sense
of Latin origin, and Latin-like punch. There is very little evidence
in the Miller version to discern it was any more Latin in origin or
nature than "Make Believe Ballroom", "Moonlight Cocktails" or "Bluebery

Hill". Therefore, one cannot say Miller's version is the definitive
one. He took a song headed in one direction, and made it a milk and
cookies bedtime lullaby.

Scarlotti: Perhaps it was Miller's toning down of the Latin elements
that make his version definitive?

I don't feel that a song has to remain true to the songwriter's
original conception in order to be "definitive." To cite another of
the songs you've noted above, Fats Domino's r'n'r version of BLUEBERRY
HILL is the one that everyone immediately associates with the song, yet
it's a far cry from the way the song originally sounded in the 30s.

I just checked over at CD Universe, and Miller's version of the song
appears on no less than 38 albums there. It's the version that I grew
up with, and the one that immediately springs to my mind when the
song's title is mentioned.

It may not be the best version (I haven't heart *every* version of it),
but it's the standard against which I measure all the versions that I
am familiar with. So far, it's always been my favorite.

Tom: Ronstadt's is likeable to a VERY fine wine, Dorsey's to a pretty
good
beer, Goodman's to a Scotch and soda with not the most expensive Scotch

either, although not the cheapest. The 4 Aces version in this metaphor

would be like Hawaiian punch, if not Kool-Aid. Cugat - started out
with best grapes but lost something in the final stages of distillation

somewhere, good notes with a few bad ones in the scent and taste.

Scarlotti: I would consider the 4 Aces version (which I like almost as
much as Miller's) to be more of a high-priced, exotic, mixed drink --
the kind with a little umbrella in it. Perhaps a tequila sunrise?
PhillyGuy
2005-02-23 20:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Miller's versions remain popular because of his (overall) enduring
popularity, and succeeding generations after the big band era,
especially after the swansong of the 78 rpm and the old brown radios
ARE less likely granted, to be familiar with other versions.

He was the most popular band of this sort of music, then and up to the
end of 20th century (only jazz lovers more and more are preserving the
memory of the big bands, and their tastes run away from "sweet band"
stylings of Miller more towards the great black bands for their
preference, and here and there to remaining Goodman, Shaw, Kenton and
Herman fans, the bands that could "cut" the sweet bands on any day).

While Miller had the definitive version of In The Mood (also done by
Artie Shaw), and a few others he owned, he didn't always have the best
version even if his was the most famous. Erkine Hawkins is the
preferred version of Tuxedo Junction (whose band originated it), for
example, for many discerning big band fans. Any version of Stardust by
Miller would have to get in line behind those of Shaw, Dorsey/Sinatra,
and Charlie Spivak and Louis Armstrong first (I'm not speaking about
the post-big band era soloists to come years later here). He did take
another band's tune, Elmer's Tune, though and make it his band's own.
Fools Rush In, with a young Frank Sinatra at the mike in Tommy Dorsey's
aggregration, is certainly the definitve choice over the Ray Eberle
version done by Miller. Most well-known songs, usually by great
composers were done up in one fashion or another by most bands, at
least the white bands.

I think Miller/Eberle lost out to Dorsey/Sinatra every time there was a
direct or concurrent set of versions of the same song out twice. It
seems that Ray Eberle, and thus Miller, would seldom if ever compete
directly against Ray's brother in Jimmy Dorsey's band, Bob Eberle,
either.
The Jimmy Dorsey version of Perfidia, a song Dorsey was famous for in
his time, although not the band's biggest hit (see "Green Eyes" or
"Tangerine"), was strictly instrumental.

Another example of a song Miller could only "rent" was Over The
Rainbow, of course, "owned" by Judy Garland.

Now I've just found out that Tito Puente (!) had done Perfidia, and I'd
love to here how that sounds.

-t
G***@mindspring.com
2005-02-23 22:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by PhillyGuy
Now I've just found out that Tito Puente (!) had done Perfidia, and I'd
love to here how that sounds.
This thread inspired me to go fishing for Perfidia versions on WinMX,
and I came up with a bunch. Aside from Cugat and Linda Ronstadt, I got
Cliff Richard, Laurel Aiken, King Tubby and Lee Scratch Perry (!), Luis
Miguel, Perre Sumont, Pablo Milanes, and the Shadows.
S***@searchhawkmail.com
2005-02-24 07:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Tom: Miller's versions remain popular because of his (overall) enduring

popularity, and succeeding generations after the big band era,
especially after the swansong of the 78 rpm and the old brown radios
ARE less likely granted, to be familiar with other versions.

He was the most popular band of this sort of music, then and up to the
end of 20th century (only jazz lovers more and more are preserving the
memory of the big bands, and their tastes run away from "sweet band"
stylings of Miller more towards the great black bands for their
preference, and here and there to remaining Goodman, Shaw, Kenton and
Herman fans, the bands that could "cut" the sweet bands on any day).

Scarlotti: In the jazz fans' opinion. I tend to dismiss the views of
the jazz enthusiastes much as I do those of the R&B crew in this group.
Both strike me as some bizarre form of the Ken Burnsian mindset
comprised of equal parts reverse racism and unfounded pride in their
familiarity with obscure songs. Basically they look down their noses
at anything that was popular and call you a racist if you beg to
differ.

IMO Glenn Miller had more great records than any of the other big
bands. The black bands (Basie and Ellington were the best of these)
had some great numbers every now and then, but for the most part have
always left me flat. Shaw and Goodman I've never been crazy about --
the Goodman songs I like are more for the vocals than the band. Kenton
had ARTISTRY IN RHYTHM, but nothing else on a par with it (at least not
that I've heard). Herman and James had two of my favorite bands, but
as much as I love a few songs by each, neither has anywhere near as
many songs that get me as Miller does.

For the most part, I prefer big band ballads over instrumentals (dance
tunes). I've bought Jimmy Dorsey albums for Helen O'Connell and Bob
Eberly and Tommy Dorsey albums for Sinatra and the Pied Pipers
(although TD's trombone solo on I'M GETTING SENTIMENTAL OVER YOU is
beautiful). James' trumpet solos on songs like SLEEPY LAGOON are the
only big band instrumentals I've ever actively sought out.

Miller's band had a unique sound that was more than simply "sweet" --
"heavenly" strikes me as a more appropriate word. Plus, he had a lot
of great upbeat numbers with Tex Beneke singing rhythm (one of the few
male singers to get sing the rhythm parts and my favorite male vocalist
of the era). And, if that weren't enough, he had a lot of great
instrumental numbers like FLYING HOME, ST. LOUIS BLUES MARCH, ANVIL
CHORUS, IN THE MOOD that I think have more kick to them than anything
Shaw or Goodman ever did.

Tom: While Miller had the definitive version of In The Mood (also done
by
Artie Shaw), and a few others he owned, he didn't always have the best
version even if his was the most famous. Erkine Hawkins is the
preferred version of Tuxedo Junction (whose band originated it), for
example, for many discerning big band fans.

Scarlotti: I haven't heard Hawkins' version, but I doubt it would ever
supplant Miller's version in my estimation -- if only because I've
heard the Miller version so many times for so many years.

Tom: Any version of Stardust by
Miller would have to get in line behind those of Shaw, Dorsey/Sinatra,
and Charlie Spivak and Louis Armstrong first (I'm not speaking about
the post-big band era soloists to come years later here).

Scarlotti: I've never seen (or heard) what the big deal with Shaw's
version is. The Dorsey/Sinatra version is the best, but pales beside
those of the post-big band vocalists (Cole, Gayle, etc).

Tom: He did take another band's tune, Elmer's Tune, though and make it
his band's own.

Scarlotti: That's one we agree on.

Tom: Fools Rush In, with a young Frank Sinatra at the mike in Tommy
Dorsey's
aggregration, is certainly the definitve choice over the Ray Eberle
version done by Miller. Most well-known songs, usually by great
composers were done up in one fashion or another by most bands, at
least the white bands.

I think Miller/Eberle lost out to Dorsey/Sinatra every time there was a

direct or concurrent set of versions of the same song out twice. It
seems that Ray Eberle, and thus Miller, would seldom if ever compete
directly against Ray's brother in Jimmy Dorsey's band, Bob Eberle,
either.

Scarlotti: Yeah, but it's not fair to compare bands based on their
singers. Sinatra was the greatest singer of the big band era. No one
else sounded like him at that time. The big band singers weren't
allowed to upstage the band -- which Sinatra constantly did. Ray
Eberle managed to turn out his share of impressive vocals nonetheless
-- his version of AT LAST is the best I've heard (much better than the
later, overpraised Etta James version).

Tom: The Jimmy Dorsey version of Perfidia, a song Dorsey was famous for
in
his time, although not the band's biggest hit (see "Green Eyes" or
"Tangerine"), was strictly instrumental.

Scarlotti: I'm pretty sure that JD's PERFIDIA was on an album I had of
his -- long ago. I never cared much for the instrumentals on it and
only remember the vocals -- Helen O'Connell's always been a favorite of
mine.

Tom: Another example of a song Miller could only "rent" was Over The
Rainbow, of course, "owned" by Judy Garland.

Scarlotti: Sure, but *no* big band could ever take that one from Judy.
No vocalist can either -- it's too tied up with our memories of one of
the most beloved movies of all time. Amanda Baker's recent version
gives Judy a run for her money though.

Tom: Now I've just found out that Tito Puente (!) had done Perfidia,
and I'd
love to here how that sounds.

Scarlotti: You know, I don't recall ever having heard anything by Tito
Puente -- although I must have at some point. I've never been
particularly into latin or jazz. My tastes have always run more toward
the Top 40 variety.

PhillyGuy
2005-02-22 18:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by g***@aol.com
The Glen Miller version, b ar none.
Vocal: Dorothy Claire (female solo) and the Modernaires (Marion
Hutton
Post by g***@aol.com
having temporarily left to raise a child,IIRCX).
Amen! The Glenn Miller version is the definitive one.
Or look at it this way, would the composer, Alberto Dominguez, have
thought of Miller's version as the most beautiful version of his song?
I hardly think so.

-Tom
Tregembo
2005-02-22 07:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
The Glen Miller version, b ar none.
Vocal: Dorothy Claire (female solo) and the Modernaires (Marion Hutton
having temporarily left to raise a child,IIRCX).
The Miller version has always been my favorite, followed by Ronstadt.

I've not heard Cogat or the Ventures. Dorsey's is okay, the rest are all
runners up.

But a great, great song.

Ray Arthur
KS Ulrich
2005-02-22 14:56:36 UTC
Permalink
for me: Perfidia by the Ventures
1960 in Radio LUXEMBOURG,
what a big sound, the guitars, the beat, wonderfull!
............................after all this years.................................................
now 2005 - if I here this record it's the same magic moment for me.

great Song - great Guitars
Karl
Post by Tregembo
Post by g***@aol.com
The Glen Miller version, b ar none.
Vocal: Dorothy Claire (female solo) and the Modernaires (Marion Hutton
having temporarily left to raise a child,IIRCX).
The Miller version has always been my favorite, followed by Ronstadt.
I've not heard Cogat or the Ventures. Dorsey's is okay, the rest are all
runners up.
But a great, great song.
Ray Arthur
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